Podcast Transcription: Astrology – The Art of Aligning with Your Life’s Purpose with Debra Silverman in Motherhood, Podcast

Episode 49 – Astrology – The Art of Aligning with Your Life’s Purpose with Debra Silverman

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How does the full moon affect us? What does Mercury in Retrograde mean? Does each person really have a destiny? In this week’s episode Rachel is joined by Debra Silverman; psychologist and astrologer with over 40 years in the field. Debra has dedicated her life to helping people heal emotional wounds by aligning with their life’s purpose (she works with Madonna, Sting, Trevor Hall and many more – this woman is literally an astrologer of the stars… To the stars!). Rachel and Debra start off by talking about the skepticism around astrology and the ancient science that lies at the core of the practice. Debra explains how deepening your connection to the stars and the planets can help change your life, and how understanding your chart can make so much fall into place. Rachel shares her own recent experience with astrology and how suddenly, so much is making complete sense in her life. They also talk about the different aspects of an astrological chart, using astrology to support your relationship, manifesting abundance and how we are all responsible to bring more light into the world.

Rachel: Hi, and welcome to another episode of From The Heart: Conversations with Yoga Girl. I am so excited to introduce to you a very, very, very special guest this week. It’s someone that’s very dear to my heart. Debra Silverman. Debra is part psychologist, part astrologer, part comedian, and all real. She has a master’s degree in Clinical Psychology, and has been an astrologer for over forty years. She’s written a book, hosted a radio show, runs a hilariously awesome YouTube channel with millions of views. And, most importantly, she has just very recently completely changed my life. (laugh) Welcome to the show, Debra!

Debra: That was a great … I like that last line. Thank you. Thank you for letting me be here in Aruba!

Rachel: Oh my god, thank you for coming! Oh, it’s such a-

Debra: Yeah, that was magical.

Rachel: How … A lot of people are asking already, why are you here? How did you end up here?

Debra: Well, it’s transformation. I mean really, essentially, people come to me first, like you did, for a reading. How did that happen again? Oh, I remember.

Rachel: Yeah, so anyone listening will know that I had Trevor Hall on the podcast and he was raving about you and how astrology changed his life. You changed his life, and now he’s all into astrology. It was for me the first time I ever heard someone talk about astrology in a way that was very much about personal development and emotional healing. I never heard that side of things. And it perked my interest.

Then we have a mutual friend, my old assistant Krista, who through Trevor and you somehow reached out and asked if I wanted a reading. And I was like, “Okay …” (laugh)

Debra: That’s what happened to Trevor! He was not going to go for it either because people have a bad opinion about astrology, because it sounds so woo-woo. But I am, because I’m a therapist, I bring it down to practicality, so that’s my specialty, and that’s transformation. Like, how do you apply this woo-woo stuff to actually make it so you’re getting along with your husband, so your kid’s happy, so you know how to eat. Like, practical things. Some people are speed freaks – a-hem – and some people are turtles. Some people are super slow, and I get to give permission slips and go, “You, slow down. You, keep going.” And then they go, “Oh thanks, I feel so much better.”

[002:00] Rachel: Yes! And for me it was … that was the first, I mean, I feel like we’ve talked about astrology for the past four or five weeks on this podcast.

Debra: Oh really?

Rachel: At least touched on it a little bit. Because the first reading I did for you, one of the big things for me was that I walk around feeling guilty all the time, because I sort of should be slowing down. So I’m always going going going, and then I’m like, “Oh wait, wait wait wait wait, I have to stop, I have to meditate, I have to be still, I have to relax,” and then I try to relax and I’m hating it and I’m going crazy. I can’t just relax! And you, through reading my chart and kind of my pre-disposed nature gave me permission to-

Debra: And now do you know why? Because you’re double fire!

Rachel: Because I’m all fire.

Debra: Like, try to tell a fire to slow down! Like, that’s not fair! It only runs hot. Fire doesn’t go medium/lukewarm. It’s only hot or it’s off completely. And the same thing, you’re air. Your sun sign’s an air, and your moon and your rising are fire, so you’re combustion. Whereas other people who are earth and water are like, “Mmmmm.” It’s a totally different personality type.

Rachel: Like my husband.

Debra: Exactly. I didn’t want to say that. Yeah, exactly.

Rachel: (laugh)

Debra: So in the book The Missing Element, you take a test in the middle of the book and you figure out, “What’s my missing element?” Because that’s where the art becomes “how do I balance?” Like, what do I do to create the Missing Element? And you could tell them all about your-

Rachel: Like what am I lacking? What do I need to invite more? Well, before we dive into all of that, because I know there’s people listening right now who have no clue what you’re talking about! The sun and the moon and rising signs and all of this stuff. So for someone that’s brand new to the idea of astrology, that maybe only has had the experience of opening the newspaper and in the back there’s this little tiny two-sentences about Libra, is your week! And it’s just kind of applies to everyone, I feel like that stuff always does … And there’s a lot of skeptic people out there. So, what is astrology? What does it mean?

Debra: Great question. So, it’s the oldest science on earth. It was written in Egyptian old history in hieroglyphics, where they could look at this pattern of where the- … I find this completely amazing. They knew where the planets were and they created archetypes and myths to all the 12 constellations. Now that’s the part where I go, “Really? How did that get translated 5,000 years ago and it’s still here?” It’s like we can’t … Everyone knows what their sun sign is. That’s curious, because it’s an old memory.

[004:00] So what astrology is it’s got this archetypical, mythical long-view that it came with, but it’s also pure astronomy. Like, remember the charts we looked at? So, where was the sun and moon and Mercury and Venus the day you were born? And they literally use the longitude and latitude of where you were born, they take a snapshot of the heavens, and they give you a chart. So the chart is pure math. It’s pure, physical reality. Where were the planets?

Now, the interpretation and the symbology and the archetypes and all that mythology, that’s like way these archives of these Egyptian great … I wish, one day when I grow up I’m going to go there and open the doors and go, “Did you”-

Rachel: One day when you grow up?! I love that!

Debra: And then they’re going to say, “I knew her! She was here in the very beginning.” Because I feel such an alignment with these … I remembered astrology at such a young age. Many people listening are either believers, and they believe it. Did you have any belief in astrology when we started?

Rachel: Not really. No, no.

Debra: It was not part of your language, or …

Rachel: No, I mean, I wasn’t a skeptic either. I was very neutral and open to it. My husband was a complete skeptic and thought it was all bull shit! The fact that he had a reading with you and went, “Wow!”

Debra: That’s my favorite thing.

Rachel: That was-

Debra: So, for all of your listeners, you don’t have to have a reading with Debra Silverman. I have on my website certified astrologers that I’ve trained. So, this is an ancient science, more to your point. It comes across all of time. I’ve brought it into modern day English. Because it’s very abstract. Like, “My … is the seventh house opposite Saturn conjunct-“

Rachel: Yeah! What does that mean?

Debra: Yes you don’t need to know! It’s kind of like going to the doctor’s office and they start talking and you’re like, “Can you just tell me if I’m going to live or die?” I can’t understand them. So I translate it. The simple answer is the planets really do influence us! This is, well you had that great skeptic we were reading on your …

Rachel: Yes. Let me read it, because I took a screenshot of that. It was a woman, I think, actually, who wrote, because I shared yesterday that I was getting you at the airport and I was so excited.

[006:00] And she writes, “The evidence collected over decades has convincingly proven that astrology has no physical basis, and the relative precisions of the celestial bodies has no impact on events that occur on earth. There has been no peer reviewed research performed in the field of astrology, and there has been no progress in understanding the basic concepts with which the field is supposedly based. Astrologers often disagree with each other, and there are several flavors of astrology, none is better than the other.”

Like, she put some thought into this!

Debra: That was well-written. She should be a writer when she grows up.

Rachel: Yes. What do you think, based on this comment, what do you think … what sign is she?

Debra: Well, she’s probably a Capricorn or a Vert- … An earth sign who wants hard evidence! Remember, earth is all about money and numbers and practicality. So she, her mind wants evidence. But the truth is, we can’t see love. You can’t see gravity. These are two things that we can’t live without and they’re invisible. There’s no way to measure love. There’s no way to measure gravity. So, we’re not dependent on the outer world, exclusively. We have to suspend … any yogi knows this. There’s a whole magical realm.

So, having said that, there is research. So she’s wrong. There has been research done at the London School of Economy. They’ve talked about the patterns of the economy going through rhythms, and they’ve actually reduced it to where is the cycles going according to Jupiter and Saturn. I won’t bore you with the details.

Rachel: Wow!

Debra: But they’ve also proven, and this is real, that during full moons there is far more instances of hospitals and doctors offices and emergency situations because the full moon elicits … we are all water! Like, think about it. We are mostly water as a physical body, the planet is mostly water, and the farmer’s almanac can describe when the cycles come up, when to plant things, and when to not plant. The waves and the ocean is predictable by the full moon. It goes up and it comes in.

Rachel: The seasons and the cycles.

Debra: Exactly!

Rachel: I mean, we live by that already.

Debra: This is so organic. But the people like that woman, who’s a very left brain linear person who’s going, “Show me the evidence. Show me the money!” Well, that’s a good question. I would love to see more research being done on astrology. But the short answer is after all of these years, when I sit with someone who I’ve never seen, they call me on the phone and they hang up and they call me back and they say, “You know me better than I do! Can you answer a few questions?”

Rachel: (laugh)

Debra: That’s when I go, “Oh, really? This astrology doesn’t work? Uh, I don’t think so.”

Rachel: So you get to see evidence of that every day.

[008:00] Debra: For forty years! All my students that I’ve taught, I have a whole school where I teach people how to learn to do … They become astrologers when they grow up! And they are so … it’s so much fun, because it’s so consistently true. Like, you just went through Saturn return! I met you, and Trevor, right in the middle of your Saturn return, when your body was starting-

Rachel: Explain that, that was a question we got. What does a Saturn Return mean?

Debra: So, Saturn was, in your case, 28 degree Sag when you were born. It takes thirty years to come back to where it was when you were born. So, you called me right when Saturn returned!

Rachel: Interesting.

Debra: And so did Trevor! Trevor had exactly the same … So that’s the turning point. Like, in that year, these last two years for you, two years leading up, 28 to 30, everything changes! People have babies and then they get married and they change their career and then people die and radical things happen. And it’s completely, totally predictable.

So, to her point, beep wrong answer! Of course Saturn return works! I mean, every single time, if all of you listening who are coming close, it’s nothing to be feared! Like you had a beautiful Saturn return.

Rachel: Yes, yes, yeah. I mean, it’s involved a lot of inner transformation, more than-

Debra: Exactly, because your Saturn-

Rachel: I haven’t had any recent death or crazy-

Debra: … is in the 12th house. So your spiritual self, which is what we just did these last two days, you’re leaning into your spiritual self and going, “Oh! I didn’t know … it was so safe in here.”

Rachel: Right. I’m remembering. I’m remembering a lot of things. I think that’s what it is. And also having the baby, for me, which was a really scary thing, and continued to be a scary thing up until now, I think it’s bringing about a very different type of-

Debra: A deep relaxation.

Rachel: Yes.

Debra: So this is Saturn return. So Saturn Return is like … think of it-

Rachel: It’s a life change.

Debra: Yes. It’s 28 to 30. It just happened to me, because I’m 30 years older than you, so it happened to me last two years, when the school started.

Rachel: Ah, so you get … of course, you get a couple of those.

Debra: Yes. And each time, 28-30, 58-60, you will point to that moment, as you will do, and say, “Remember when I just around turned 30 and that baby arrived and my whole life changed?” And this is true of all of you listening. So, it’s kind of a universal truth. However, depending on your spiritual evolution, it can be very difficult, or it can be really beautiful.

[010:00] So, it’s not always sad for everyone. It’s not … Sometimes it’s like yours. How do I get happy? Is it safe to be happy? That’s a big problem! Or, how do I navigate … for Trevor it was his body. He had staph infection, and then he had so many different things go wrong. Lyme disease. And he had to stop, and stop touring. And that was a big deal for him. And then he discovered how he could be happy. It was a really fun thing for me to watch.

Rachel: So for someone who still, you know, because this is a complex thing. For me, even looking at the chart in front of me and you pointing at the things, it’s just, I can’t really digest it. But so, using me as an example, for instance, because I have no … I share everything in this podcast. There’s no secrets, at all. So, depending on exactly the moment I was born, so the time and the birthplace, of course, so the longitude and latitude-

Debra: Was the sun setting? Was the sun coming up in that city?

Rachel: Yeah. Was the moon full or new, and then where were the planets?

Debra: Exactly. You got it. And then how are they relating to each other? There’s geometry involved. So was the sun standing all by itself, or was it supported by the moon? If the sun’s in a fire sign and the moon’s in a fire sign, that’s a wonderful … they get along. The sun and the moon are in the same element having a wonderful time. If the sun’s at fire and the moon’s in water, uh-oh! When you were born they weren’t getting along, and that tells me a lot of information about the person’s inner world. So, I can look at the chart and see the psychology of the person and then be able to help them, first of all, fall in love with what they got. Because you can’t argue! Ha-ha!

Rachel: Can’t argue (laugh) yeah.

Debra: Can’t argue with the stars, like, “I don’t like my chart!” I keep telling everyone, “Stop arguing with her.” Fate. “She’s not nice, she’s not listening to you!” But once you fall in love with your fate and you become conscious of it, the whole thing changes.

Rachel: And all the planets signify different things in different areas of life.

Debra: Right, so the sun is your ego, your personality, which in your case Libra. Sweet and beautiful and loves colors and loves harmony and really loves to have the beauty. Your moon is in Leo, like, “Look at me!” So there’s Rachel and she walks in the room, we’re all like, “Rachel’s here!” It’s a fire sign. And it’s in Leo. Loves to be noticed, and it loves to share their love, they’re performers.

[012:00] And then your rising is Sag, which is the philosopher and the teacher. And they’re blunt, and they tell everybody their secrets, and they’re so honest, and they’re so funny. And they think everything is funny! So you’ve got this wonderful fire and air combo which makes you so animated.

Rachel: That’s … it’s interesting-

Debra: She’s definitely big energy!

Rachel: (laugh) Yes, a lot of energy. I always had that feeling, like this unstoppable energ-, like I always had the … one of the first things you told me was, “Oh, I bet you’re so bored with everybody else. You’re wondering what’s everybody else doing with their time and their life.” Because I just operate at a different speed, and I have to constantly remind myself, like living with Dennis, for instance, who operates at a totally different pace, you know?

Debra: He’s water. So his mercury is in Pisces. He has a water as compared to all your fire. So he’s calm. He doesn’t want to talk, he just wants to be able to do his thing and be able to be uninterrupted. Well that’s not you. You want to be, you’re like, where’s the fun factor? Who can I teach? Who can I play with? And this is the gift in relationship especially, to learn the difference and allow that person. And once the person … once women out there stop trying to change the man, the whole world is going to change. Ding-ding.

Rachel: Ding-ding, the whole world’s going to change. I mean, my whole world is changing already. Well we did these 24-hours, we did something called 4E, can you share a little bit more about that? So it’s the four elements.

Debra: That’s right. So, you were able to actually sit down … They call this, some people call it parts therapy, some people call it voice dialogue. You let one part of yourself give voice. So we identified four different parts of your personality. One was the water. That’s the emotional side. That’s the meditator. That’s the one that doesn’t want to talk. Just what you see with Dennis. Be quiet, be still, close your eyes, go in, and take a deep breath and feel. Those people get bugged by people. They get bugged by noise. Your daughter has this. They want smells and textures and softness.

Then there’s air people, which is what you and I are. Then we move … sat in your air position, that was the one that was sitting across from you. And she talks and she has ideas and she’s on the internet, oh my god she loves Instagram and Facebook and she can communicate to everyone and their dog, dawg. She’s, like, friends with everybody. And she’s the social part. And she has an incredible gift of the gab. That’s air. Airheads! We forget where we’re going, we forget what we’re bringing. The water is like, “Shhh, can you all just slow down?”

Then we have the earth people. This is the earth people. I got a rock in my hand, this beautiful crystal. They’re about money and practicality and organization and spreadsheets. And they love, believe it or not, they like doing taxes and accounting and making little lists. And you have some of this. You’re quite masterful here. They get goal oriented, and it’s quality control, and they don’t like when people push them. They’re like, “I’m in control. I know exactly what I want.” As compared to the air person going, “What did I say? Did I write it down? I can’t remember what I said!” And then the water person, the gentle water looks over at the earth and goes, “I can help you with that. I heard what you wanted. Let me help you.”

And then the fire person was the other voice you gave, and that’s the fun factor. That’s loud and joyful and show-off and eating and drinking, “A little bit more please.” They’re always having fun. And they have an excessive nature, fire people, so they’re very athletic. Your husband has this in spades. How long can I run? How much chi can I move? How much sexual energy? Where’s- …

So, there’s four different parts, and we got to hear each of your voices and found out who was the missing element. Like, which part of you was diminished? And that’s what my book does. It’s really simple.

Rachel: So most people have always one element … Or can there be more than one that we’re missing, we’re lacking?

Debra: Yeah, some people that are way off balance will be two of them, but it’s certainly one of them. And then you have to drive towards the one you don’t want to do. So, for you, you want to tell … I don’t want to tell your-

Rachel: Yeah yeah yeah, no, so my, the one the one that’s missing that I need more of is water, and specifically clean water. So the ability to give myself permission to be still and relax and soft and meditate and feel, most importantly, and feel safe and held and trust.

[016:00] Debra: Oh that’s so beautiful, she got it so quick. See this is the gift of air, you and I both, like, we learn and it goes into our body. But if we were earth we’d be like, “Can you show me once more? I didn’t quite get it the first time.” So some … that’s why you made my job easy. Some people … some people come into a lifetime and they’re turtles, and they learn by mistakes reaaaaaaaallllllly slow. Which would drive you and I, like, can you help that person? Someone else help that person. But you got it. And so that is true. Water is slow down, take a breath, remember the angels, remember the magic. We can’t doubt. At a certain point you reach a level where we’ve heard so many stories from you today, these last couple days of how much magic you’ve had. And that is water. Because we can’t see the angels!

But you can be sure, everyone listening, everyone, you have a soul, and your soul’s trying to get your attention. And how does it do it? By crisis. The soul will get your attention through scaring you. Who made that up?

Rachel: Who made that up. But it’s soooo truuueee though.

[Commercial Break]

Rachel: I mean, I’m writing a book right now, we haven’t even spoken about that, but the book I’m writing right now is about overcoming adversity, and grief. So I’m writing about this year that I had when my best friend died and my grandmother and my dog. And I keep touching on this, and everybody I connect with through talking about grief is the incredible space for love that it opens. So somehow in the midst of that despair, there’s also that intense presence of, like, “Okay, I’m very much alive here. I’m very present with the people that I love and with this pain.” So there’s this doorway to-

Debra: Your soul.

Rachel: To, yeah, to your soul. And does it have to be that way though? (laugh)

Debra: No no, this is what we did today, this was what my work was. Once you start listening … I always say, from a very young age I said, “Stop waking me up with these big fat frying pans on my head. Do the alarm clock softly. How about I wake up before the alarm? Send me a memo. Life, you don’t have to be mean to me.”

[018:00] Rachel: Yeah, do I need a brick in the head every three years?

Debra: So, no! So if you … my prayer has been, “Let me wake up without the alarm.” And I’ve learned, now I don’t even … I do set the alarm, but I’ve, like this morning it happened. Just two minutes before the alarm … “Don’t hurt me.” But you can ask life. You can say, “I’m really interested in growing. Please don’t hurt me now. Just in case you didn’t get it the first time, don’t worry, life’s coming back to get ya.”

Rachel: Mmm.

Debra: So that’s the soul. The soul will use any crisis it can to see what level you’re willing to be humbled. There’s two kinds of people in the world. The ones that have been humbled, and the ones that are about to be.

Rachel: Hmmm, wow. Yes. I mean, there’s a lot of truth to that, for sure. And I find … It’s also with yoga, you know, people find the practice oftentimes through very challenging places. We’re feeling lost, we’re working through sadness, or-

Debra: Or their body’s broken.

Rachel: Or their body is broken and they’re in pain. So, there’s definitely an avenue here. And I think everyone listening, even if you’re … if you’re listening to the Yoga Girl podcast, I’m going to say you either are kind of a little into yoga, or you have been into yoga, or there’s a part of you searching for something. You know, we’re all sharing some form of similar goal, I feel, or similar path in life if we’re all in this community together. But the same thing with the yoga practice. That feeling that, you know … Moment in savasana where you well up and you feel so much emotion or you feel just complete silence or just complete, you know, connection, like you’re vibrating and the room is. You have these yoga moments, which is why we go back to the practice again and again. You know, I don’t think that they’ve been scientifically studied either, you know? Like astrology. It hasn’t been …

And there’s a lot of yoga skeptics out there, “I’m not going to sit there and hum,” I’m like, well that’s not really what we do. But there’s this connection to breath, to body, and to intention, right? Why am I here? I’m here moving my body on the mat intentionally being mindful about where I am in space.

Debra: And honoring the temple!

Rachel: Yes.

Debra: I mean, this is the thing. The thing about astrology and yoga … If you write yoga, it ends with an a. If you write astrology, it ends with a y. So, yoga and astrology are one word. If you keep writing them they’ll stick together. …

[020:00] So yoga, which I love, I adore, is honoring my temple. The outer world, my physical body being able to breathe and flow and never get crinky and cranky and turn into that raisin that grownups turn into. The astrology is the inner world. Like, “Who am I? What’s the nature of my personality? How do I come to peace with these stupid personality traits that are bugging me and my husband? How do I explain this with kindness – that’s why the subtitle of my book is “Compassion for the Human Condition,” because by design we’re so weird. I mean, we learn through mistakes. Heartbreaks wake up our heart and heal us. Financial crisis makes us value money. When the kid gets sick, we’re suddenly so in love.

Rachel: Right.

Debra: Well who made that up?

Rachel: It’s always the contrast of this kind of panic, from panic to total-

Debra: Wisdom.

Rachel: Wisdom, yeah.

Debra: In the soil of pain grows wisdom. Brought to you by Debra Silverman.

Rachel: Hmm. (laugh)

Debra: So, the trick here is if we give ourselves, like, I always think about this: 20 years ago, there was no yoga. Like, if you would have said to me, “Savasana,” that word on a pod, we’d go, “Huh?”

Rachel: In the Western world, like right here, yeah.

Debra: 20 years ago, if I say to you, “The elemental …” If I say to “grand trine,” you’re like, “Huh?”

Rachel: What is that?

Debra: But coming soon to our neighborhood, three planets all 120 degrees apart, the sun the moon and another planet, it’s a beautiful triangle. And that happens … When the future comes, and I can’t wait, I’m going to say, “Grand trine,” and you’re going to go, “Wow, you’ve got a grand trine?!” Just like if I say, “Savasana,” everybody lies down.

Rachel: Hmm.

Debra: That word was foreign-

Rachel: Yes.

Debra: You know, truly, so we’re talking Egyptian hieroglyphics, or we’re talking with Sanskrit, in that language, in the ancient wisdom of the elders is coming back to us. So I’m at the very entrance of astrology, our team, our group, the whole of our new age movement hasn’t brought astrology … I’m so grateful to you because all I want to do is say, you guys, look up! I promise, there’s a design. God said, I love this line, Einstein said, “God is not playing with dice.” That was an Einstein quote.

Rachel: Hmmm.

[022:00] Debra: This is not random. So, we think it is. We’re scared to think that is. But when you do a chart you go, “You are such a Libra, Leo, Sag.” Like, you’re a picture postcard of the perfect example of your chart! As I am, as a Gemini. Like, I listen to myself and I’m like, “Debra. Boy can you talk!” But that’s what they made me up as. So, as we begin to understand this old, ancient language and it comes back in, there’s so much comfort to know that God has a design, and you’re part of it.

Rachel: Well there’s a trust there, also.

Debra: Such a good feeling.

Rachel: Being able to lean into something that, okay. Especially when you are in that moment of doubt and why am I here and what’s the purpose and nothing’s going my way … Do you also find, because this is something that I’ve seen skeptics say that if you are in that vulnerable place and you’re looking for something, people will say, “Oh, well they’ll attach to anything!” Right? Do you ever find, you know, someone who is looking for an answer, and then maybe a not so great astrologer might throw them any answer and they’ll just attach to it and then it gives astrology a bad rap.

Debra: Yes. I always say there should be astrology police, because I hear this all the time. Someone will come to me and show me the chart and say, “I’m never having children. An astrologer told me that.” I’m like … Why would an astrologer with that … That’s ridiculous! There’s free will! Of course the chart suggests something! It gives you propensity, like in your case with Jupiter in your fifth, you’re going to have the cool, like that would be a clear indicator, Jupiter is the planet of luck, it’s in the house of children, in the sign of Gemini. So, it’s very likely you have the option of having a lot of children.

Rachel: But I could also decide to have no children.

Debra: Absolutely! Because your husband’s chart may be completely different. So, nothing is written in concrete, the nature of your hair, the color of your hair, the color of your eyes, the dog you had when you were a kid, your parents. These are things that are faded. But at a certain point, you get a vote. And so don’t ever … Yes, and I get so upset with those astrologers!

Rachel: Because that was a couple of questions that we got, like, how much is free will and the decisions we make in comparison or weighed out by the chart and how … you know?

Debra: Well, when we did your story, which was so beautiful, you saw those critical moments where kismet, I love that word, K-I-S-M-E-T.

Rachel: Yeah, that’s a brand new word for me.

[024:00] Debra: I love that word. When all of the sudden fate (another word for kismet) came in and said, “We’re taking you to Aruba and you’re going to walk into that store.” You can imagine your angels all giggling. And then he writes his phone number down on this little piece of paper, and I love that you saved it!

Rachel: We framed it, yeah!

Debra: And that moment, that you would never know in that moment, like you and I meeting, like who knew the series of events? So you must know that everyone’s doing that. There is definitely a design, and you can interrupt it … by falling asleep in the middle of the movie, or going and getting yourself caught in a drug addiction, or not saying yes. Someone recently wrote me, this is such a sad story, this beautiful woman, she’s in her late ‘30s, and she’s never had a sustained relationship. She’s absolutely physically beautiful, but she just has that karma where things break. Finally she met a man, she was in Mexico, this beautiful man, they invited her to stay and go be with her, but she had gotten so crispy that she said no. She wrote me a week later saying, “I think I have just made the biggest mistake.” Her crispy critter, her shut down heart, her memories prevented her from being in the here and now, and she walked right by. And who knows?

Rachel: Mm-hm.

Debra: Now, she’s considering going back, but she can’t find him. It’s one of those sad stories. So you must say yes. And then you turn your discernment on and go, “Uh-oh, that was…” But you’ve got to keep your heart-

Rachel: Because you have to listen, I mean, because if you don’t have your heart open and you’re not able to listen into that intuition, right?

Debra: Yes!

Rachel: Which might require a leap of faith. Like, “Am I going to move to Mexico to stay with this guy I just met?”

Debra: Exactly! And sometimes it’s all wrong, but if you’re spiritual, this is your chart. This is your life lesson, is if you can take the big picture into focus, everything turns into a lesson.

Rachel: Mm-hm.

Debra: And suddenly those stupid … because I have so many, I call them “stupid stories” in my book, like, I have so many stupid stories, it’s embarrassing. But I’ve been such a good student of life. And you and I both have Saturn and Sagittarius. I’ve been so determined to find the philosophy and ask the hard questions, like, “Why did I keep getting that same thing wrong so many times? Oh, because then finally I got it right.”

Rachel: Mm-hm.

[026:00] Debra: For those of you listening, I know what it’s like to be a millennial and you’re bumping into yourself and you don’t know where you’re going, and thank god for Rachel because you’re such a big beam of light, you give faith. But every one of you have a mission and a destiny. And while it may seem totally vague to you, you can find out using astrology! I hate to say it, because it sounds like I’m a commercial.

Rachel: A little bit, but-

Debra: But I mean it. I know! But I really mean it!

Rachel: No, but I mean … and I can share a little bit of my personal story in here so that … to give people something to anchor into. Actually, I also love mixing it with Dennis’ story, because Dennis is so … I’m so clearly a believer of many things, and he’s so very clearly, like, a skeptic. Everybody we meet, anyone who sells anything, he’s like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What’s the flaw? Is this real or not?”

So, it was just, for me it was more … First of all the chart told me many many things that you could have never known about me. About my personality traits, about the parts of myself that I find sometimes shameful or ugly and that I wouldn’t just … um, you know. Not my good side that I put out to the world.

Debra: And the timing, when I knew the-

Rachel: Timing of things, really big life changes, and also patterns that I have kept repeating in my life again and again and again and again and again and again, and the beating … beating myself over the head with the same thing again and again. And it was just … having my chart read, I could just kind of relax into this, “Oh my god.” Like it’s nice that this shit makes sense and that it’s not just me making the same mistakes or me having had to go through this trauma, or all of this stuff. Like, okay, it’s leading somewhere, and then I could actually objectively put myself out of the sadness of that story and just say, “Okay, well wait, where am I now? Like, all this stuff.” And it makes sense looking at the chart. It’s exactly what the chart says. And it’s exactly what my past was. And now I can change it if I can become conscious of it.

Debra: Exactly. And you have Pluto and Scorpio on the top of your chart. So, talking about death and about clearing peoples’ emotions, and you’ve got, throughout your life, you’ve been stalked with that conversation about death, and about really facing scary unconscious material that no one wants to talk about, but you seem to have this uninhibited … [028:00] And you’ve been face to face with really feeling scared in your whole childhood until you decided to create your own new childhood with your new baby. Like, we’re not doing that anymore!

Rachel: But then, like, the last podcast I recorded last week was right after our last reading, and I was crying into the mic. I cry in almost all my … all the podcasts I do alone I’m crying at something. But, everyone listening knows I’ve had this very … I mean, I’ve had. Listen how I said “I’ve had” this very overwhelming fear of something happening to Lea Luna, happening to my baby. But this elevated, horrible paranoid, like, taking over my life in a really horrible way type of fear.

And now, the past 24 hours with you, the thing that’s clicked the most that just totally makes total sense is that this intense love, for me, always automatically comes along with intense fear of loss. They are so connected, so-

Debra: Welcome to Scorpio.

Rachel: (laugh) Welcome to Scorpio! So does that mean that everyone who’s a Scorpio has these types of traits.

Debra: Mm-hm. Scorpios push and pull.

Rachel: Because I’m not a Scorpio. How is Scorpio playing into my chart?

Debra: You have a Scorpio at the very top of chart. It’s called the midheaven. It’s your career. It’s what you came in this life to teach us. And you have Pluto sitting there on the ninth house side. It’s a very powerful position, right about the hat of your mother on the hospital bed was this planet Pluto. What it indicates is that your relationship, this lifetime, your purpose, the tenth house is your purpose, is to walk through the dark fearlessly and come out the other side. Now, I wouldn’t want the job, but clearly you got it!

Rachel: (laugh) And I’m starting to feel pretty comfortable with it. People have told me this again and again, like, every big spiritual moment of awakening that I’ve had, I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever talked about it on the podcast, but I had one in a cacao ceremony long ago, I ad one in a ayahuasca ceremony. I’ve had many, in moments of death and despair when I’ve had that like, on my knees looking up at the sky and had god speak to me. But it’s always been in those very intense moments of excruciating pain.

[030:00] So, having a realization that resembles that, but I’m actually in this perfect place in my life. Sitting by my pool with my perfect child who is safe, with my perfect husband, with everything working, and I’m so safe. I don’t have to be in this moment of almost death, you know, to have-

Debra: Waiting for it to happen again!

Rachel: Yes. Or to have a realization of, okay, this is why-

Debra: That was then.

Rachel: That was then. And that it’s okay for me to unconditionally love her and to know that I can trust that I’m supported and-

Debra: So one of the ways to do it in metaphysics is you go into the future. It’s scary, because what could happen? And you go into the past, and it was was scary. But at this moment there is no evidence! So, the deeper we drop in … into the breath. This is yoga. What I love about yoga. Stop time! I love savasana. Stop time, take a breath, and check it out. Oh! Well, we’re safe in this moment. And this is Eckhart Tolle’s work, the beauty of Eckhart Tolle’s work, was how do we come into the here and now and drop in? This is essentially what Buddhism is. All pain and suffering comes from the attachment of your story. This is what’s going to happen, and this is what happened. That’s not … in this moment, everything … Now, when the crisis does occur, will you be able and be able to be strong enough to stay still? Will that will be how much you practice it in savasana now.

Rachel: Now. Lay the groundwork now for how well we’ll be able to deal with a crisis shall it-

Debra: Off the mat, right. And that is such a, um, for me … Now, I hate to say this, but when things get really rough in my business or with my relationships or whatever happens, I watch and see, and this is what my book is about, I observe myself, and I say, “Debra, are you present? Or are you in the future, in the past, and making stories up?” I call it MSU. It’s a university I went to, it’s called Making Shit Up! And there’s lots of graduates from MSU. And they just make stories up, they make stories up. And I have to catch myself and go …

Rachel: (laugh) Oh my god, I do it all the time. That’s the feat. I make stories up in my head of all the ways that she might not be safe, how I’ll fall down the stairs, and she’ll stop breathing for no reason in the middle of sleep, even though, like, objectively I’m like, “That’s insane!” You know?

[032:00] And then I make these stories up and I go with them, and then I experience this overwhelming pain, despair, and worry.

Debra: [panting sound]

Rachel: And sometimes that worry makes me act completely irrationally, and I become very clingy, or I snap at my husband for no reason. And it starts to create this heavy, dark cloud that I live with. Where actually, as a matter of fact, it’s not even real.

Debra: This is the upside of Scorpio. Because at the downside, they scare themselves. They kind of like scary movies and they like sick stories, and they want hear all the things in the world that are going wrong because they kind of like it. The upside is they’re the healers. And they’re fearless to stand in front of themselves in the depth of their story making and say, “Stop.” They’re very willful. And that’s what I’ve given to you, I’ve given you back your will, where you’re in charge. Not of everyone else, but just that culprit that lives in your head, you get to say to her, “Excuse me, sit. We’re not doing that story today. You need to sit down.” And that part of you is going to go, “Oh! I guess I’m not in charge anymore?” So, while you’ve been trying to control others-

Rachel: Which never works.

Debra: All you can control … Well of course. Good luck. If you can just get that one culprit to sit down. I call it the gremlin. Like, “Gremlin, down. You’re not telling me right now, my daughter is fine.” Then you take a deep breath and you put your attention on the moment, and you’re like, “Okay, we’re good.” So, it’s a physical pra- … It’s sort of like yoga. Staying in the here and now.

There’s another way to do it. Just to keep saying, “Here and now, here and now.” Deep breath. And suddenly … You guys can do it right now, listening to the podcast, just come into the here and now with us. It’s so beautiful!

Rachel: I think, honestly, that’s why, you know, the medium of podcasting, it’s one of the fastest growing mediums in the world. And people love it, because I think it’s very hard to do something else while listening to a podcast. You can watch TV but you can turn away and you can pick up your phone and you can do a gazillion things at once. Listening to a podcast, and actually stay engaged, you have to be completely present, and I think that’s why it’s very-

Debra: And this is actually one of your gifts, by the way. You are very good at listening. I’ve taught you this, my tattoo says, “Listen and silent have the same letters.” But in order to really listen, you’ve got to stop thinking of what you’re going go say.

[034:00] Rachel: Yes, you have to-

Debra: You have to really drop into the savasana.

Rachel: And trust that the next thing is real and it’s coming and it’s, you know …

Debra: And that you’ll be prepared to say what you need to say. If we, as I’ve learned through this life, as a public speaker and as a reader and as a spiritual teacher that if I can drop into the now, it’s scary, and stay there, then when we do an interview like this, I’ll be right on the edge of my seat with current truth. But if I’m thinking about it-

Rachel: Or planning it, or writing it out.

Debra: Or listening to you and saying, “That happened to me too!” You know how people interrupt, you’re telling a story, and they’re like, “My mom …” You’re like, “I was trying to talk!”

Rachel: Shut up!

Debra: (laugh) I like that.

Rachel: Let me finish my sentence.

Debra: Kind of like that. Yeah yeah yeah. Because we’re not listening. We’re interrupting with our own versions. So, there’s an art form … And this is true in love-making too. If we can make every moment brand new, and not expect what’s coming next, and slow it down just a little bit, this is really the art of tantra, this is back to Scorpio again. The art of Scorpio is making love. They’re very sexual by nature. Because it turns off the head, and for a moment you’re in pleasure and you’re in rapture with this person you love. And the next thing you know you’re completely, totally taken over by an energy.

Now, if it goes twisted, which can happen to lots of people, and it gets kind of taunted by dark, by perversion, the whole thing is like totally weird. But if it’s clean energy and you’re really present, and you’ve stopped time, and you’re breathing … pleasure is immeasurable. And that should be when you’re drinking a good glass of water, if we were smart we’d learn. In my life, because of being a thousand years old, I’ve learned to walk slowly.

Rachel: Debra is in her 60s. She doesn’t look a day over 39.

Debra: Oh, you’re so sweet.

Rachel: You’re Benjamin Buttoning your way through life!

Debra: I don’t know what happened to me. I don’t know what happened! I think it was just, if I could talk people that are my age, they don’t really want to listen, but I would say to them, first, watch your diet. Really, the vegan or the opportunity to drink a lot of water, if you want to eat meat, eat what’s true for you, but do your best to minimize. [036:00] That’s one of the first things. The other thing I would say is “Keep laughing.” Like, Benjamin Button’s medicine is just tickle yourself. This whole thing is a cosmic joke!

Rachel: The whole thing is a cosmic joke.

Debra: But boy do people get serious.

[Commercial Break]

Rachel: So, for someone who is, because I know a lot of questions we got was from someone who has their sun sign, or their zodiac sign, but they don’t feel like they resonate with it, at all. And that would be a first step into, well, okay this can’t be real because I am a Virgo, but I don’t like a Virgo at all, for instance. How does that sometimes come into play? Because there are several aspects of each person’s chart that matters a lot.

Debra: Right! There’s 10 planets. So let’s say the sun was in Virgo, but all other nine were in different signs.

Rachel: So your sun sign, that’s the zodiac sign. That’s the sign that you would read in like Cosmopolitan magazine, birthday, the basic thing everyone knows.

Debra: Birthday. Just your birthday. It’s a list of … Every single day the sun moves one degree. So we always know where the sun is. That’s why we’ve exploited it. Because we know if you’re born on May 24th, the sun’s in Gemini. Every single year. But we don’t know where the moon is or where Mercury or Venus or Mars. So we’ve capitalized on this one piece. Which is true, it’s a big influence. But what if the other nine planets aren’t in Virgo? Then how do we explain to you why you’re not a classical Virgo? So that’s true about people!

But I would say ninety percent of the time, people relate to their sun side, because it’s so powerful. And then there’s these other planets to be. And that’s only determined … You can go on astro.com for free horoscopes, on the top left-hand corner, and then you chart … You click on the left hand corner, it says, “Chart Drawing” and you can see how many planets do I have in Virgo? [038:00] Oh, I only had one? Well no wonder I don’t relate! So there’s a way to determine that.

Rachel: To determine that. So, and all you need to know is the exact time of your birth and your birth location.

Debra: Exactly.

Rachel: So what are the other things that are really important?

Debra: So you asked that yesterday. I love that you asked that. One is what we described as your rising sign. So the rising sign is determined by the moment of your birth. What time of the day were you born in Sweden, and what was on the horizon? Oh, Sagittarius, very late degree Sag. At the moment of your birth on the eastern rise, they take a picture, and that becomes your birth chart. So, the rising sign, better known as your ascendant, or your higher self, is different than your ego and your sun sign. It’s what you want to aspire toward, what you want to rise into. Now that’s esoteric astrology. You’re not going to read that in regular astrology books. That’s what my school is based on is esoterically. And that’s the purpose in my school is to take you towards your soul, not towards your ego.

Rachel: What does esoterically mean?

Debra: It’s great, I love it! Esoteric is … There’s exoteric astrology, which is all about your ego and your personality, and esoteric are the laws that apply to your soul.

Rachel: The inward journey.

Debra: Exactly. So, I’m focusing on taking people to their rising sign. So, I tell people, beginners, put away your chart and just go to your rising sign. Yours is Sagittarius, which is the funniest, luckiest … When people call me for C-sections and they want me to, which is a weird job.

Rachel: They call you for what?

Debra: They’re having a C-Section, and they want to know what time their baby should be born.

Rachel: WHAT? Wait! This is brand new information for me. They call you and then they want to make the decision of when to have the birth of the baby? What do you do?

Debra: I give them your rising sign. I give them Sag rising. Of all the twelve, you scored.

Rachel: Of all the 12 I scored! It’s the fun sign, we have the most fun.

Debra: They’re happy and they’re funny and they have a philosophical attitude, and they’re lucky … Lucky living under correct knowledge. They’re seekers. Trevor has this too. But you have to help them be happy, because sometimes they feel guilty for being too shiny. [040:00] But that’s one of the rising … Not just Sagittarius. That’s one of my favorites. There’s several others. There are some hard risings. I’m not telling, because I don’t want you guys to feel bad.

Rachel: Ah. And how do you feel about that?

Debra: I don’t like that. I mean, really, do I look like goddesses cousin or something? How did I get that job?

Rachel: Yeah, you’re a goddess Debra, making decisions of the whole universe.

Debra: But I, when people really do have to have a C-section, and they get a vote …

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, if you get to choose, that’s true.

Debra: Yeah. Yeah, it’s not my favorite job.

Rachel: So, aside from ascending, uh-

Debra: So the sun is your ego, ascending is the next really important one. Then you want to look at Saturn, which is your life lesson. Saturn has all the rings about it. It’s the most important … In my system it’s the timekeeper. And that’s what Saturn Return is. When life shows up with your destiny. So you want to know where’s my Saturn? And yours is at Sagittarius. So not only is your soul funny, but your rising sign is funny.

Rachel: (laugh)

Debra: You scored-

Rachel: I’m funny.

Debra: Yeah you- But that’s why you laugh so much, and things are so happy! You have this little cheery disposition, and there is people that have not such cheery dispositions, who are solid, and they feel bad about themselves. I love earth people. I hire them. I put them all around my life, because they’re solid and dependable and loyal. But do they laugh at my jokes? Not all the time!

Rachel: Not all the time! Do you look at people’s charts before you hire them?

Debra: Yes. I feel bad saying that, yes.

Rachel: Yes. Of course! If I knew all of this I would-

Debra: I would say people come to me in magical ways. Of course, this is what we call kismet. And then once they come to work for me, I look at their charts, and I go, “Oh, that explains it.” And then, sometimes it’s a problem!

Rachel: Sometimes it’s a problem because you know too much, or-

Debra: Because their charts, yeah yeah yeah!

Rachel: And what about the moon?

Debra: So, the moon, think about the moon as night. It’s when you’re sleeping. So, it’s your inner world. It talks about your emotional temperature, like how you work your temperament. So, your moon is in … help me.

Rachel: Leo.

Debra: Oh my god. So you get so excited … So you’re emotionally, you’re like, “Oh my god, this is so much fun! I want to dress up, and I want to have a life, and I want everyone to be fun!” [042:00] And then your rising sign says, “Me too!” And then your Libra says, “Who are we inviting?” And then everybody ends up at your house!

Rachel: Yes, that’s usually how things go.

Debra: So your moon’s in Leo, which means that your emotional temperature, your temperament, the inner world, is a little dramatic. Which we’ve seen.

Rachel: Mm-hm, a little. A little. I think Dennis would tell you a lot, probably.

Debra: Yes. Dennis has Leo rising, which makes you very compatible.

Rachel: But something, and I can share a very, this was a very clear, like, objectively very clear lesson that we learned together as a couple from working with you these days, and I’ve talked about this in the past also, but one of the kind of re-occurring issues we’ve had in our relationship since the baby was born is his immense need to do physical exercise. Like, he started becoming Ironman, and I wasn’t sleeping, and I was working, and then all of the sudden he’s on a bike for eight hours, and I thought it was a complete waste of time, and so selfish. Like, all I do is breastfeed and not sleep and work, and then he gets to go and do whatever he wants and sit on the bike for eight hours when he could, like, do something more important with his time? So, I thought it was completely pointless, and that he was being a really selfish guy. And he was slowly going into complete despair from not having the time and the ability anymore to move his body the way he wants.

And you … I listened to parts of when you were reading his chart, and that it’s so clear in his chart that he needs to move physically, and if he doesn’t physically move … That was the first thing you said. “Oh, he just needs to move every day, he needs to move, or he will become completely depressed.” And he took this back, he was like, “Rachel, please, can you just listen? Just listen to her giving me my reading. Because everything I’ve been trying to tell you for this whole year, it’s all true, can I please just ride my bike? Please?!” (laugh) And we’ve made two, like now he rode a bike for eight hours, I said nothing, I was super supportive-

Debra: I was impressed!

Rachel: He booked an Ironman for April. I’m super supportive, I’m like, “Okay, okay.” Because it gives me a new looking. Okay, if it’s actually-

Debra: It’s not selfish! It’s soulful.

Rachel: No.

Debra: His rising sign is fire, to my point.

Rachel: And if it’s soulful, for me it was also like, okay okay, I just got a new looking of, “Okay, maybe it’s not just his ego, like, ‘Uh I need to be a man and do this kind of stupid stuff.’” [044:00] But, like, that’s how he meditates. That’s how he nourishes himself. If he does that, then he’s happy with everything else. And then that’s totally worth it in our relationship.

Debra: So all you fire signs out there, including you, if you’re not yogis, if you’re not doing yoga or moving energy, you get tired from not exercising. The opposite of other people, fire people. They have to move energy to make energy. Water people need guilt-free cards. You’re allowed to sit. Like, they’re allowed to sit on the computer and stream, or watch films, or let themselves be in their room with their music on and not feel guilty about not wanting to be around people. That’s a big gift to give to a water person.

Or the air people, we forget where we’re going in the middle of the day. Like, “What did I say I was doing again?” But that’s acceptable when you realize your gift is charm, and you make everyone feel better. And earth people, you are control freaks. Like, you have to have it your way and be exactly as you want it. And you’ve got to explain that to your partner, “Honey, I need you to put the fork up when you put it in the dishwasher. How many times have I told you this? Don’t put the fork …” So that has to be acceptable, otherwise you’re going to be fighting with your partner and yourself.

So, he found out his nature, and then he was given permission, and what a difference in your marriage, in two minutes.

Rachel: Yeah, I feel really, in two minutes, really really … And I don’t know why for me it was that … And he says, “Why didn’t you get this when I was telling you?” And I said, “Because we’re married, and I’m in this brain full of all the stuff we have to do all day, and for me it’s really hard to fit in, like, hours of physical exercise everyday. To me it sounds really selfish, because I can get off and do my stuff in other ways. I don’t function that way at all.

Debra: Yeah but then tell the story of how, when he finished the race, you saw this face.

Rachel: Yeah, so in the end of his, his final lap of the marathon of this 14 hour Ironman, and he’s just smiling and smiling and waving to everyone, and going so slow I thought he was injured. And he told me, “No, I didn’t want it to end!” He was just stretching his Ironman to last as long as possible! (laugh) Because he loves it so much.

And then I had this ah-ha moment, where I’m like, “Okay, what am I doing to our marriage if I’m trying to take that away because I have this idea that we should work more, we should … Can I just relax and let him be who he is?

[046:00] Debra: And that’s what astrology.

Rachel: Yeah.

Debra: It gives permission slips to let people be who they are. And it’s really important to allow, when someone is … of course we can grow. It’s not to say that we’re never going to grow to unfamiliar land, or stretch ourselves, but when you’re accepted for who you are … What does everybody want? Like, think of your best friend who loves you just the way you are. So you’re fire, we have a similarity this way. We’re both fire. My best friends are all fire. They don’t even think I’ve got a big personality!

Rachel: (laugh) You all merge together.

Debra: I’m like, oh my god, look we both are pushy and bossy, and I like when you’re pushy and bossy, but if I’m with someone who doesn’t have pushy bossy, they look over and they go, “You’re selfish.” I hate that word. I’m like, “Oh no.” That used to really sting me. Like, you don’t really know me! I’m doing this because I’m full of joy and I’m making myself excited and I want it to be this way! Don’t get mad.

My other friend who is fire says, “I get it!” And then I’m like, phew, we just change that whole-

Rachel: You need more people like that that just get you automatically in your life.

Debra: Exactly.

Rachel: What is Mercury in retrograde mean? A lot people … this is very hip, there’s a lot of memes out there about Mercury in retrograde. All the people are asking about that. Can we blame anything going wrong, that’s just Mercury is in retrograde? What’s that all about?

Debra: So, I have a platform called, TheStarCommunity.com, three words. And on that platform every month you get the download of where is the full moon and when is the new moon, and when is Mercury retrograde? And I do a video on it. So anyone out there who is interested in learning this, because we only have … a school only opens twice a year. It’s during September and February, so you can’t study until … But the star community, you can study all year round.

So, when Mercury comes retrograde, all it means, like, if you see two trains going in the same direction at the same speed, one starts to look like it’s going backwards, because it’s relativity. It’s a scientific term that if you actually seen, if you’ve ever been in a train station and seen it, it’s such a funny looking thing, they’re really going the same direction, but the visual is they’re going backwards. It happens three times a year for about three weeks.

[048:00] And it’s really true that your computer and your telephone and you’re forgetting your keys and something breaks, and there’s lots of instances on airplanes where the flight is delayed. It’s really higher. There’s no question. So three times a year, yes, Mercury appears as though it’s going backwards, and it is actually, I mean, the physical reality is that it’s going backwards from Earth’s viewpoint. It’s relative. It’s a very Einsteinian thought. But it doesn’t matter. I used to pretend I didn’t believe in it, because I was a skeptic for so many years, even though I’ve been doing this, and now every time Mercury goes retrograde, my phone breaks and my … I’m like, okay, okay. I got it, you guys.

So the short answer is it does have a … It asks us all to stop and go backwards. That’s what Mercury retrograde is about.

Rachel: Hmm. So how can you counter that then? Just by slowing down?

Debra: As soon as you know it’s coming, you start to smile. It shows you how irritated we get. People that are speed freaks like us (sings galloping song), then mercury tells slow, and “Oh okay. I’m going to use this time to review anything behind me that I left undone.” It’s a great time to do that. “I’m going to use this time to review anything, relationships that I don’t-“ … It’s a really good time for self-reflection.

Rachel: Hmm. Beautiful.

[Commercial Break]

Rachel: For someone who is really interested in this and still thinks, like, “Okay, there is so much. I really want to learn the basics.” How would I get started?

Debra: So, there’s two options of school, as I mentioned, in September/February. But during the year we have something called Interview, which is a self-study program. I think we launch that, like, three times during the year, you can come onto my website, and you can see, “Interview,” and you can go do it by yourself.

[050:00] But, the real truth is the Star Community is the kind of the shortcut. Even if you’re advanced, if you’re fascinated, every day you go in the Star Community, it’s so much fun, and I do this whole … I do a month at a glance. You take out your calendar and you go, “Oh! So during this week of the 11th to the 14th and Mercury’s retrograde,” so then you’re ahead of everyone else. So it begins to be prophecy! I mean, that’s what I’m longing for, is to give people this information simply. So you can learn it simply from the Star Community, and then the school is where, like-

Rachel: Yeah, I’m really interested in that.

Debra: You’re in. You’re in.

Rachel: I’m in, I’m totally, totally in.

Debra: It’ll be in September.

Rachel: Can you share with us anything about, you know, where we are at right now? Any words of advice for what’s going on in …

Debra: So, this is the time the prophets all long to live. Like, there’s 7.5 billion people. If you stop to think about it, we’ve never, ever had this many people here. Everyone you’ve ever known is here. Every past life. Every karmic connection, they’re all on the planet. And we’ve never had these many people. So we’re in an unusual time in, I call it herstory. It used to be called history, H-I-S … I’ve called it herstory. So we’re in a new version of herstory, which is things have to change. We can’t sustain the consumption of oil and food and pollution and the amount of anger. It’s escalated.

So that brings it back to yogis. I love that we’re yogis, talking to yogis. Like, everybody calm down. Yes, we’re in a major moment in history, or herstory. It’s an opportunity for us to wake up, and put our values where they really are meaningful, which is our heart, and the spiritual doorway that’s called wisdom.

Now, if we don’t do it, I’m scared for our kids. So, eating properly, whatever that means for you, it’s not a right or wrong. Astrology is all about individuality. Taking care of the body, taking care of your respect for your form. Respecting your car, your closet, your house. We get so disrespectful. And especially this temple. So, the planet right now is demanding consciousness, or we’re going to hurt ourselves! And that’s predicted.

[052:00] Rachel: And can you see, I mean, predictions from here on, now? Like, what are the chances? A couple of questions we got were very related to politics and Donald Trump being president, and was there anything in the chart of our collective-

Debra: Yes. So, in 2020, that would be next year, Saturn and Pluto are coming together, and Capricorn.

Rachel: Two years from now.

Debra: What year are we in?

Rachel: 2018.

Debra: See, I don’t even know, because … Hello! I’m in Aruba. Okay, so it’s actually 2019, beep beep. Saturn and Pluto are going to come together, and Capricorn, for the first time in hundreds of years, and it’s going to … Capricorn rules the government. You know that now Saturn is the planet of life lessons, so as a collective we’re being face to face with our government. And then Pluto, as you know, rules power and death. And change, radical change.

When that happens, and this is a year from now, we’ll be looking at our government going, “How is this serving us? Or is it?” And this grass root effort, which is why I love Nahko and I love Trevor, and the people that are, like yourself, that are saying to everyone, “We are our governors! I’m the president of my company, I’m the company of my body. How am I treating myself?” So we can’t keep blaming, when Pluto and Saturn come together, the government itself will be very rocky, it will be challenging, even more so. Something is going to happen in that year that will make us say, maybe it will be … Could it be Trump? Unfortunately, I’m fascinated by Trump.

Rachel: Have you … Did you read his chart?

Debra: Of course.

Rachel: And? What is his chart?

Debra: It’s interesting, he’s got something similar to you. He’s got double fire. He’s Sag-Leo, like you are. So he’s got this big, bright, shiny, loud presence that walks in the room. But he has-

Rachel: Oh that’s scary.

Debra: And he’s got an ego, which is okay to say. I know there’s so much opinions, and I get so scared talking about it, because my whole life’s work is turn on your observer and see if you can neutralize and stand out, off the planet, and look back and go, “Oh. There’s some political leader now who is eliciting so much reaction!” I’m so happy.

Rachel: Yeah, so much.

Debra: I’m so happy. People are really challenging everything.

[054:00] Rachel: The movements are everywhere popping up that are sparked from this.

Debra: Exactly, and women, and so much wonderful tension. However, if we polarize, and this is very Libra, if we have no bridge to talk about this, there’s no conversation between, like, did you see that thing on 60 minutes that Oprah did?

Rachel: Mm-mm.

Debra: She did a 60-minute special having Republicans and Democrats at a round table, talking about politics. And after she did it, which was brilliant, this was last week, Trump texted, or how do you say … He twittered, and he said, he was all pissed off at her. “I don’t like her anymore.” (laugh)

Rachel: Really?

Debra: Yeah, because he thought her questions were slanted. I didn’t. But he didn’t like that he didn’t get acknowledged the way … Anyways, the point of the story is, she did a really big act of putting them in the same room, and this is what’s required. So, in the future, as Pluto enters Capricorn and Saturn, they come together, we are going to have to figure out how are we going to deal with this polarization between Republicans and Democrats? Not just here. In England, in Europe, it’s happening where we polarize and we fight. So, there has to be some new conversation. This is very Libra.

My dream is that we’ll start, like what Oprah did, we’ll start listening to the other side and agree to disagree and putting our attention on what does matter, which is the children and the future and the environment, and it will bring us back to center. My prediction is we’re at a very uncomfortable moment, and it’s going to get worse.

Rachel: It’s going to get worse. For how long?

Debra: I think until, I would love to give you the exact time that Pluto, I want to say sometime in the late winter of 2019, when Saturn and Pluto, I think it’s going to be more like, um, I want to say April/May when they come conjunct, and at that point, when we have some kind of major event, it will be up to each of us, and I really pray that you guys are listening, to be kind. When you hear the haters, when you see the conflict, let us take the position of the peacemaker. Let us be listening to the person we don’t understand.

And I kind of find, like, I always want to sit next to someone and say, “Tell me about your beliefs.”

[056:00] And if they’re totally opposite of mine, they don’t believe in astrology, think it’s bunk, and they don’t believe in yoga, and this whole thing is new age bunk, I’m like, “Can I understand what you do believe in?” Now, it’s a hard conversation, because they’re so not used to being listened to. Everyone’s used to talking over everybody, and not listening at all.

So my dream, and certainly in the wake of your, Rachel, because you’re such a Libra, is what would it take to be kind enough to actually hear? Because, someone said this recently, so many people, “I found out she voted for Trump and we weren’t friends anymore.”

Rachel: Yeah, it’s become a thing, almost, where, okay, you voted for Trump, so we’re out now. I was doing this through Instagram and Instagram Story, because I had … It also depends on which side you are, so what type of media are you being fed? Because it is true, we’re being fed two completely different stories. So, whichever side you’re on, you’re going to be under this belief that this is the absolute truth. But the answer is probably neither is an absolute truth, because nothing really is.

Debra: Exactly.

Rachel: But I was under this impression of, also not being American, coming from another country, we get this very one-sided view of what this is. So it was totally unimaginable! Like, who would vote for this guy? And then he won! And it was so shocking! And I asked people on Instagram, “Okay, I know I have people following here, apparently, that white women voted him into presidency. Why? Because I really wanted to know what’s behind. If it’s not, you know, put Hillary aside and whatever you liked about Obama, just, why did you vote for him?” And a lot of the stories came back, they were deeply personal, of course, deeply deeply deeply personal. Someone had had a horrible experience with a child who was sick, who had a really horrible healthcare nightmare happen because of whatever policy was in existence from the prior government. It was so deeply personal, almost lost her child, so of course, here comes this new option of something else, she’s going to go with that option no matter what it is.

[058:00] Just listening to those stories of, okay, there is heart here, there is pain here, there is a reason for everything, and it’s not just this ego, stupid stuff that comes up where we think that people are stupid. Of course that’s not it. Once we start listening to that side of the conversation, like, oh she had a fear of losing her baby, that brought her to this place. Okay, someone else had this, someone else had this. Same reasons for why we vote for anybody. Once we get to that level of, just, we’re all human, we’re all just trying to have a good experience. We’re trying to be safe, we’re trying to make sure our children our safe, that we’re cared for, that we’re taking care of our families, that we’re abundant, that we’re happy. Like, we all want the same stuff.

Debra: I know, I know. You’re so Libra. So, so I … I’m doing my best, and I’m not, I have to admit, it’s a work in progress, to hear him and watch him and watch the public, and watch my responses and do everything I can to stay in the observer. And still take action. It doesn’t mean I’m neutralizing and I’m passive, I’m just trying my best to not polarize and add more argument.

I was listening to Marie … What’s her name? That famous … she’s got school B. B school. Marie.

Rachel: I don’t know her.

Debra: Yes, you must know her!

Rachel: Oh, I do?

Debra: She has a huge following. And she was interviewing Brene Brown, and it was so interesting, Brene Brown, the vulnerabil-

Rachel: Marie, not Mary Anne?

Debra: No, I’ve done a session for Mary Anne Williams.

Rachel: Oh!

Debra: Not her, no. Marie … You guys all know this, you’re all writing it like crazy right now. But anyways, it’s called “B School,” and she was interviewing Brene Brown, and she had this profound … Brene Brown, “Don’t attack. Stop using negative words. Do what we can to stop saying they’re stupid and we hate them and you voted for him so now I hate you. Like, hold on! We’ve got to stay open and listen. And this is the last art that’s not being done on this planet. How do we hear the people we don’t agree with? How do we actually have enough heart?

So, I practice this. I do it with the kids I’m working-

Rachel: It’s very hard.

Debra: It’s such an exercise. It’s a muscle. So with your husband, when you’re arguing, like, “Can I just hear your point of view?” And he’s totally disagreeing with you, of course he’s wrong, and you want to just tell him, “Wrong!” And then you stop and go, “Wait, let me make sure I’m hearing you, because this is so confusing.”

[060:00] And you try your best, and it’s a practice, and it’s going to change the planet. This is called “True Listening” and it’s a deep, deep skillset that I have prided myself on, as you saw yesterday. Like, really hearing somebody and seeing it through their eyes, and trying to imagine what does the other person, like, how does her mom feel about this? The person that you would think is that prag … the, um … how do you say that word? The one that’s mean? The perpetrator?

Rachel: Mm-hm.

Debra: I always try to see it through their eyes. Like, what’s it like to violate? What’s it like to be that evil? That dark? Now, that’s a hard point of view. But my desire this lifetime is truly to bring peace, and it won’t happen by calling people dumb.

Rachel: You did something really interesting when you arrived here. So, I have to tell this story. So, Debra arrives, she’s out of the whim, out of the blue flying from Colorado to Aruba. And she arrives, and then in customs they gave you a really hard time because you didn’t have the address of where you were staying. And I was like, “Oh shit! I can’t believe I forgot to give Debra, the, oh my god!” I was expecting you to come out, like, fuming, because I know how horrible they are to you if that happens in customs. And you met this lady, and then what happened?

Debra: She was so mean! She was so mean, and she was like completely rude. I could see that she was one of those mean, I want to say evil, but that … And then she said, “You go sit down!”

Rachel: Because you didn’t have the address.

Debra: Yeah. She’s like, and there’s nobody there. “Go sit down in that chair and go figure it out.” I was like … Well first of all I was like, well how am I going to get Rachel’s address. I don’t even know what to do. So, I turn around and I suddenly realized, like, “Wait a minute, I’m not going to take no for an answer!” So I went two people down to the custom agent and I said to her, “She’s being really mean! Can you help me?” And she looked at me and she winked and she was like, “I can help you.” And then she stamped the passport, and then I walked out and I felt that feeling you’re talking about where I was so pissed off, and I was talking out loud to myself. That’s how I know I’m pissed off. I’m like, “That was so mean. That lady is miserable!” And then I caught myself, I was in the mirror, I was getting ready in the bathroom and I stopped and I went, “Thank God, number 1, I’m not her.” I always imagine, “What was god thinking when they made her?” Like, what’s going on with her?

[062:00] And then I just blessed her. I thought, “Okay, well someone has to send her a blessing.” And I let myself drop into the negative. You can’t override, you can’t bypass the negativity, because I was pissed. And I took a deep breath, my observer kicked in, and I looked over and I thought, “What was God thinking when they made her,” and then I thought, “You know what, she just needs a blessing. She must be really, really sad. Because no one treats people like that.”

Rachel: Unless you’re really, really sad.

Debra: And then I got in the car and there you were!

Rachel: And you were so happy and shiny and everything was awesome. I was like, “Oh my god, that must have been a great customs experience!”

Debra: Yeah, for about 13 seconds.

Rachel: You blessed her. And I think that’s the way. If we all reacted that way to challenging people coming in our path, because they’re just challenging our beliefs, or whatever it is. There’s a way to turn that around and bring love there. Maybe she had a total change at the end of that day where she was like, “Oh, I feel a little better about myself.”

Debra: You never know! Exactly. The magical energy that can go on inside of your thought process. When you take on the role of the one that blesses. Everywhere I go, and I know you do this, everywhere I go, my Dad taught me this when I was very young, just leave people with a smile! Now that’s our silly … We’ve got fire and air, so it’s easy for us. We tickle people all the time. I love tickling people. And your baby! That little baby. She looks at you and you’re done.

Rachel: Yeah, that’s it.

Debra: It’s ridiculous! All she has to do is smile and you’re like, “She likes me!”

Rachel: She’s the smiliest, like, it’s the best. She’s here to show a lot of love, that’s for sure.

Debra: And that’s what we’re all here to do. So everyone took the position of, “Who can I bless?” And when the perpetrator is evil, and when there is so much dark, to stop time, close your eyes, and see if you … It’s not easy. It’s just like yoga. It goes through the discomfort, you stretch into … this poor woman. I’m so glad I’m not her. That’s my secret.

Rachel: And then turn it around to compassion.

Debra: And that’s my book! The Missing Element.

Rachel: It would change the world. I mean, it sounds like a very simple thing, it’s hard in practice, but I think the more you do it, the easier it becomes to immediately not drop into your own ego of like, “Oh fuck you!”

Debra: And you know what, there are so many millennials out there, because this was true of me since I’ve been very young, that I’ve always wanted to bless …

[064:00] So anyone listening that’s out there, that you feel like you love the tarot, or you love playing those oracle cards or picking your angel cards, or you love doing the meditation, you love chanting. All of those spiritual doorways all suggest that your soul is being beckoned to be the one who’s taking the high road. So, if anyone out there who thinks they’re young but they know they’re old … That was my problem when I was young. I knew I was old when I was young. If you can try to see yourself as the one that can make the difference, who cares how old you are? You could be the one that blesses a situation and tries to take the high road, or ask the question, like, why was she … what was that? After you get past the pissed off part.

Rachel: Right, because you have to process.

Debra: You have to get pissed off. Way too spiritual schmiritual, I call those people. They pretend they’re-

Rachel: Yes, you’re smiley all the time, yeah, it’s not possible.

Debra: Bull, it’s like-

Rachel: Anger has to go somewhere.

Debra: You have to let it out, and then you come back to your senses and go, “Uh oh, I just got triggered. I matched the mean lady. Now there’s two of us.” And I don’t want to be like her. So stop right there, take a deep breath and say, “What was god thinking when she made you?”

Rachel: Hmmmmm there’s a way, there’s a way. And now talking about it, just having this conversation, it feels so simple. Like, it would all be so simple if we just had this mindset, if we brought a little more-

Debra: But no one’s taught us this!

Rachel: No, we’re not taught this. It’s very, very true.

Debra: And that’s part of what just happened with you and I. Because I live in a place of calm, because my childhood, which you’ve never heard, was so so so traumatic – I grew up in Detroit and my grandfather was murdered and there was nothing but scary things. My father was in the mafia, we were followed by the FBI. It was a terrible, terrible childhood. Like, scary. And then I learned that everything that could go wrong did go wrong when they took my dad away and all of the things I was scared of. And then I realized, I could change all of it with a thought, with a breath, with my ability to be calm.

So now, having had so many things go wrong, I’ve realized that nothing can take me out of my center. I hate to say that, I don’t want to be tested. But I can promise you that I know the skill.

Rachel: The past is the past, and you’re here.

[066:00] Debra: And I’m here. And whatever happens I trust that I … who do I trust? I trust me and my spiritual connection, that absolutely, angels brought me here today. Like, I know that guy sitting on the airplane next to me, that was a complete opportunity for me to bless him.

Rachel: And the idea of the angels, that was something else very simple you said to me almost in passing. So this fear that I have that I am in charge of Lea Luna’s life. You said, “Well you’re not in charge.” I’m like, “What?! If I’m not in charge, who’s in charge? I’m her mom! Of course I’m in charge!” Well, she has her own angels! And there was a little part of me that just went, like, “Oh!!” I’ve just been waiting to have the remembrance of that. Like, one, I am not the master of the universe. I do not control who lives or dies. I can try and make myself miserable on the way, but I just, I don’t … But number two, like, she has her own angels, and then, like, it really clicked with me.

And I was watching her in the monitor later in the night, and I just visualized that, like, “Oh, she has her own angels, she has her own protectors, she has her own purpose here, she’s an individual person. She’s not … you know, I’m not everything here. I’m not god.” And I just, like, put the monitor down, and I slept really well, all night.

Debra: I’m so glad.

Rachel: It was really-

Debra: See, and if every mother could give their child trust, the child will learn trust. Which is what we didn’t get as kids. It wasn’t safe. But it is safe now. And she’s learning it by your example. So we’re changing, you guys, all these millennials listening today, you’re changing the future! You don’t have to play out the same stupid stories that your parents imposed on you by changing how you treat your kid, and how you treat your husband, and how you treat your food. Like, my mom fed me Twinkies and pop tarts. I swear, my whole childhood I had Twinkies and Pop tarts. And I kept having a stomach ache. I wonder why!

Rachel: And you wonder why. (laugh)

Debra: And now my kids, they eat what they want to eat, but I role modeled for them, not obsessively, but, “Here’s what it looks like to be healthy,” and turn into Benjamin Buttons.

Rachel: Mmhm. You’re a living, breathing example of that.

Debra: Yes!

Rachel: Thank you, so many thank yous for you, but thank you thank you for sharing your light and your wisdom and making this so accessible and easy to understand because I think it is, not a lost art form, it’s just, it’s been in the background a little bit.

Debra: And very abstract and very complicated. And that’s what my school is and that’s what the Star Community is. It simplifies it. And so thank you, because look what you’re doing. You’ve got this bright shiny light with a magnet. You brought all of these people and then I get to help all, that’s like … This is the perfect!

Rachel: Magic! It’s a match made in heaven, literally.

Debra: I know, I’m so thankful! Thank you, thank you for being here.

Rachel: Thank you, Debra. I’ll see you.

Debra: Soon! In our dreams.

Rachel: I’ll see you soon again, oh my god, oh my god.

Debra: I’ll see you in my dreams, I’m not going very far.

Rachel: I know that, and we’ll be visiting you in Kauai very soon.

Debra: Aloha!

Rachel: Aloha, thank you.


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